[Ferris]

Lets get one thing straight here (and sorry for being a late poster)...

Yes, the stereotype is there, no matter what the genre. Orcs, Klingons (wipe your arse better I say), mindless robots intent on killing, mindless zombies intent on killing, etc. All the same, yada yada: We know about these things, the human mind has trouble coping with the unbelievable, and more so making it (unless your on some sort of drug for whatever reason, or you're mad).

Just to split some hairs here, Fantasy can be split into High (full of magic and dragons), and Low (not full of magic and Dragons). Right, understand that so far? And if you think Wiki has a few points on Fantasy, you aint see me rant.

Now then, I admit there is alot of trash out there. It spreads over all genres and gets stuck between your teeth, in your hair and behind your ears. However, this is mainly to do with the differing types of media in which this stuff comes in. You want to shout about the over use of Orcs and Elves? Take a look at Role-play games and Computer games. Its full of it, why? Cos it sells.

Saying that, there is plenty of fantasy out there that smacks of unoriginal ideas. These people, though not bad at writing, are the ones there to get on the band wagon and make some cash. You'll find them as part of an agency, selected from other employees for their skill in a certain area.

Do not get these mixed up with real writers, sorry if that offends anyone, but its not their fault they cant find the right place to submit their work. I'm ranting again, back to the point.

I assume then, that Dr.Strangelove will never give me a good crit or comment, purely because my work is in the fantasy section? If you wanna limit yourself, go ahead, fantasy is there to escape (and you will very rarely find a dragon, a troll or an orc, elf or vampire in my work, that I can guarantee!).

Yes, fantasy can be childish, and it can be adult. It is the themes in these fantasy stories that make them. More often than not you will find VERY adult themes in fantasy novel, how often do people write about selling a 14 year old girl into marriage? Not many, but you'll find it i fantasy. Im not even going to touch upon the erotic fantasy another site allowed (but well written and very interesting!).

The key here is the target audience. Clearly, Dr.Stranglove, you have picked up some pretty naff fantasy, most likely aimed at kids. Did you fall for the age old thing about not judging a book by its cover? I do it all the time :S

If aimed at an older audience, the story will contain adult themes, adult emotions and a plethora or other things deemed 'Adult' and most of the time, these stories will be of a low fantasy genre where magic may not even exist! I'm thinking of Ghormagast (spl?) Wont find many kids readig that behemoth of a book.

You'll find that fantasy written during the 1920's and 1930's relies very little on magic, reading Fritz Liebers 'Tales of Lankhmar' you'll find no other races other than national identities and those found on earth (he even goes so far as to have his characters find their way to ancient Greece).

I write in an old world setting, does that make it fantasy?

Ive lost my point again, but if I am getting anywhere, some one tell please tell me!

Yes, most fantasy will not be recalled in 10 years time, but the truly classic ones do, Tolkien has been about for so many decades I dread to think what I must have been at the time he wrote those stories. The only reason it came to light is because of the film, a sensation in its own right.

As for awards and such like, I don't ever recall reading a book that got an award (at least that i wanted to read rather than forced to read). I haven't even read Lord of the Rings.

And who ever said it, these books/series of books were and are awesome.

Orcs (Stan Nicholls) - Orcs want to get to a new home to escape their kinky war-mistress (the home they were stolen from)
Discworld books (Terry Pratchet) - you just gotta love them!

Read Conan (the originals!) by Robert E. Howard, or even H.P Lovecrafts stuff, its horror, fantasy and sci-fi all rolled into one. If you don't like it, then your just an old smelly person too set in their ways!

[Ferris]

In work today, I realized what the genre is called that your getting mixed up with!

Aha, behold, Sword & Sorcery!

Its the classic 'evil vs good, magic vs peasant farmer' type of story. You could argue its a sub-genre (I think it is) but thats where the problem starts, its almost fan-fic at times.

Hope that helps shed some light on the matter (and my rant, which I am sorry about)!

I'd suggest you further your reading Dr. Strangelove, as I am trying to do myself (I'm looking into horror and others, quite interesting I must say).

Ferris

[Maud]

Ok belive it or not I was being much more soft one what I think of people who read fantasy and what fantasy is, and in the last couple of years I have matured some on this subject so let me reform my thesis on this...
I hate fantasy because most scifi and fantasy etc. is not a form of art, yet it tries to pass as such. Art is not a form of escape or entertainment, art is the expression of ideas. Fantasy writers and readers insist on saying, its escape. Or that I don't like it because Im not imaginative enough, let me ask you, which takes more skill working from a blank canvas or operating within reality. My first love is literature because the worlds best authors are able to express the human experience, wonderful ideas, and self revelations through the rational world. Fantasy authors try to get you to ignore reality. I don't want to escape from life, I love it. That is why I love literature it is an expression of my love for life, not my hatred of it. When I do read fantasy and sci-fi I read those stories because the best writers in those generes use primary experiences to explain and develop abstract principles.

Atlas Shrugged thought me how to live my life. A single book helped me to define my morals and belifs, true that I only accepted the book because of life experiences, but it was Atlas Shrugged that organized them and expanded them.

The Double by Jose Sarmago helped me to understand the nature of individuality, and just how important it is to us. White Noise by Delillo helped me to understand man's fear of death and just how powerful a motivator it can be to others.

The Catcher in the Rye helped me to understand people better, and just how afraid we are all of getting older.

I could go on and on. I dont need books to feel happy and sad, I make that for myself in real life. And yes I know you are thinking a happy book can get me out of a bad mood. But those emotions are fake, artifical. They wear off easy, and you can never really learn from them. When you remember the happiest moments in your life I am sure you think of real life experiences not reading a book. Now Ill be the first to say that its no where near impossible to use art in scifi/fantasy. One book I left out of the above is The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Heinlein. Im just saying its so much harder. Think of the fractional percentage of Americans who read, then think of how few of them read to learn. That is why I am scared, where wanting to learn has become an embarrasment in this society, and our so called artist on the site, and in the world, fail to understand what exactly art is for. Fantasy is an enabler. The reason Sci Fi isnt, as often (but still often), is it talks about our future, of what we can become if we can only try. Star Trek for instance teaches us cooperation, and the importance of exploration. I am by no means a Trekie (I have friends, lol) but I have a respect for it.

Essiantially I am saying this- I dont like fantasy becuase its an escape. Those few novels that arent crafted for that reason arent worth finding, having to go through so much crap.

Oh and Im not too old, 16, and if I may say so, I have impeciable hygenie. lol.

[xtremelady]

When I do read fantasy and sci-fi I read those stories because the best writers in those generes use primary experiences to explain and develop abstract principles.

which is exactly what I am attempting to do with mine; maybe some of your criticism is valid ..so will forgive ya for passionately disliking something I adore.

[SeaN]

I don't like it because Im not imaginative enough

nailed it.

umm... everyone is entitled to their opinion I guess.

[Corneac]

I hate it too persoanlly. Ok. But there are somes exceptions; Tolkien and Marillier. That's about all, give me decent biography anyday.

[Maud]

Originally Posted by SeaN

nailed it.

umm... everyone is entitled to their opinion I guess.

lol
thats why I hate my grammer! The reason that I hate it has not thing to with my imagination, lol.

[Ferris]

See, the thing is now, I feel you have defunked your debate.

Fantasy, like any Genre, is fully capable of all those things you have listed. You just have not seemed to have found it yet. Theres no point in listing a few examples, simply because you have to want to read them, and yes, there are those books you have read which have perhaps marred your view on Fantasy.

I say, keep an open mind, and don't 'hate' something you have yet to (as near) fully learn about. If we all did that, we'd still be living in the open fields freezing our butts off in the cold.

[Maud]

The fact of the matter is that by all literary standards there are more sucky books in fantasy then in anyother genre. (Go by the industry stadnards awards won, best sellers, effects on society, survivability) So there for it is the worst genre. Not complicated.

[Ferris]

Hang on, you're telling me your going to use statistics to determine which is the worse genre? I'm not trying to offend here, but what sort of study is that?

If you had said you don't like it because of the content, I could live with that. But I really think you haven't done enough reading of the genre. I could look up google and pick out all the trash from other genres and say the same thing.

I would like to see the words 'sucky' in this literally standard you speak of.

Fantasy is still a young genre. Read Lovecrafts Essay on Horror and he points out that even Horror had its beginnings with 'sucky' stories.

Really, if you had told me in literary terms why you don't like it, I could have lived with it. But you have debased yourself by you previous comment a little.

As for survivability, its still going, is it not?

Effects on society - Harry Potter has got people reading where other genres have utterly failed.

Stephen Kings books - oh look, fantasy again - Best Sellers, left right and centre.

I'm finding your argument hard to follow here. Give me a proper literary reason.

You may find this bit offensive, and its not meant to be, but if you are 16, then you should know that in a few years time your life is going to change and your opinions also. When I hit 18 I was reading a whole different genre of books, wondering why I hadn't given it a chance years ago.

By 25 I was needing something different, because my whole world view changed and I began to start craving others things.

Has anyone else felt like this, past or present?

Would be interesting to hear...

(If anything I have said is deemed offensive, please let me know)

[Maud]

Harry Potter and books like it dont hold a candle to The Jungle and Uncle Tom's Cabin when it comes to an impact on society. And I really dont care if kids are going to read if they are not going to read something more meaningful (I am not talking fiction neccesarily but a work of some value).

When I measure literary success I measure it as-
Affecting Society
Improving Literature (not its genre, literature in general)
Remeberility
Orginalitity

Fantasy as a genre is seriously lacking in all four of my standards (which I think are perfectly understandable). Few fantasy books have been remembred the only I can think off are the LOTR series, and even that pales to the bigger genres. Few fantasy elements are ever brought into the other generes, few books have shaped society (Now harry potter shaped society through its popularity which doesnt count, a great book does it through its message). And fantasy books are becoming less and less orginal.

The fact of the matter is the following: There are two kinds of books, escapists books and realists books. Entertainment and Art. Fantasy and Literature. Like any other genre there are bad and good books. In fantasy this ratio is disproportional.

And fantasy isnt as young as you claim, wizards and witches and tales of the sort have been around prehistory, the reason no one seemed to fit to record them is because people couldnt afford to take the time to convey pure entertainment, it had to carry a message. Thats all I ask is that a story carry a revelant and orginal message, fantasy is doing less and less of it as pop culture takes it over.

[xtremelady]

Has anyone else felt like this, past or present?

Would be interesting to hear...

Oh yes indeed - when I was young I loved books like the black stallion - the silver brumby be Elyne Mitchell and the lion, witch and wardrobe - read all in each series - at about 14 moved on to Stephen king - James Herbert and Anne Rice and anything with action / adventure - I still read these but Terry Goodkind has sort of become my fav reading material now - cry's he doesn't write em fast enough for me.

[Maud]

I always considered reading Goodkind, him being an objectivist and all, but always afraid of his fantasy stuff. Maybe Ill put some of his stuff on my reading list, and suggestions?

My obejectivisim and love for ol' Rand overrules my fantasy hating genes any day.